GCLive Geocaches: Not Always Loaded Successfully

Discussion related to the Garmin Montana 7x0 series GPSr
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LeBombardier
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GCLive Geocaches: Not Always Loaded Successfully

Unread post by LeBombardier »

Hey All,

I've got a potential spicy bug for you. It relates to 1 in ~15-20 caches not displaying on the Garmin Montana 700 map (Garmin or Geocaching map). There's no pattern or common trend, and obviously becomes more evident on circular loops where there are large concentrations of caches.



All cache types appear affected, although Traditionals will obviously take the lion's share of the missing. The issue can be replicated using Geocaching Live (via both workflows) and I've recently been able to replicate it by manually uploading a GPX from a Pocket Query download to the device (counter to the video above where I hadn't already tried that prior to recording). Downloading nearby caches, from a list or by pocket query (limited to 500 caches per query) all result in the bug. I've seen this issue also away from the maps in the Geocaching search result lists where the same caches missing from the map also appear missing from said list of results. I can also confirm that my filters are set up absolutely fine.

I did find that removing the files under the GPX folder (Current and Nav I think) did result in a slight improvement in reducing the error rate, but it didn't eliminate it entirely, nor did that reduce for any reasonable time.

This means I cannot rely on the Garmin to go out Geocaching and need to verify what I see on the Garmin with the 100% reliable smartphone apps that can download caches offline if needs be. Not really the setup I wanted, but rather a robust, accurate and power-sipping GPS that can be relied upon.

Garmin UK have confirmed this is an issue they've not previously encountered and are investigating this as of last week (1 September). Above you'll find a link to an edited video of what I've sent them - edited because I've blurred out the device serial number. The device is running V9.20.

Can anyone here replicate this by performing Geocaching searches in their local area, especially in densely published areas?

See you on the field,
Nathan (LeBombardier)
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GPSrChive
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Re: GCLive Geocaches: Not Always Loaded Successfully

Unread post by GPSrChive »

Thank you for the excellent post!

My first question is, once you 'load' geocaches for a given location on the map, and you see that one (or more) is missing, what happens when you select the 'Refresh' symbol and 'load again' without moving the map? How about 'Refreshing' after moving the map only just slightly (0.10 mile, or 150 meters)?

The GPSr can only display the data sent by the Geocaching API, and I will frequently refresh the 'load' two or three times to be sure I have received all geocaches for the area of interest. There is a limit on the number of geocaches that can be sent per transaction (I believe it is 25), so particularly dense areas may require multiple 'loads' to get them all. Sometimes, panning the map ever so slightly will also help with the second or third 'load'.
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LeBombardier
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Re: GCLive Geocaches: Not Always Loaded Successfully

Unread post by LeBombardier »

No problemo, and thanks for the quick response!

I was eager to try your suggestions tonight, so found some densely populated areas and had a crack. Soon found a few places that were missing caches in circulars. Keeping to one position and refreshing the downloads (per the video) wasn't producing any results. Moving around per your suggestion occasionally produced the missing cache after 2-4 attempts. On some occasions I needed to move far further out of the area from where the missing cache was for it to produce. What was strange was that assuming the API is limited to 25 caches at a time (I wasn't aware of this, so thank you), even zooming in to a new area where there were a cluster of ~10 caches would still result in one missing on some occasions, with several attempts needed for it to show/download.

As a result I'm wondering if we should still list this as a bug? We cannot be expected to have to download 2-4 times in the immediate area we're caching in order to get any semblance of the caching environment. I let Garmin off with a lot of inefficiencies and poor UX, but this really does need some attention IMO. Do other Garmin devices have the same issue? just wondering if the Montana 700's large, touchscreen and device-specific custom behaviour is having an adverse effect?

Just to add - a certain bug (if we use the API limitation theory) would be that download lists and pocket queries results in missing caches at quite a frequent rate. I've tried reducing pocket query sizes (500 is the suggestion on the GC website) but this hasn't improved things. That isn't ad-hoc live downloading of caches as I went through in the video, so keen we highlight that as related, but the mechanism of failure being distinctly different.

As a sidenote - I did record a video and sent to Garmin UK at the same time as the preceding issue around the Garmin Chirp device causing the Montana 700 to crash when programming the Chirp. It has meant that I have a new Chirp that cannot be programmed, but is being detected. I'm aware you have a bug already listed on this in a now-defunct Garmin forum thread. Garmin told me that the issues raised in the past should've been fixed by new firmware, and as they didn't hear back from the two UK customers that initially raised the issue they closed their cases assuming it had indeed been fixed. Would you like me to raise a new thread for that which you can then link to the relevant open bug (#2 on Crash Bugs for the Montana 700)?
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Re: GCLive Geocaches: Not Always Loaded Successfully

Unread post by GPSrChive »

I do not have any documentation stating the API is limited to 25 geocaches per request, but it just seems to be the way it works with Garmin products. May be a limitation imposed by either party, or both. I have never seen more than 25 geocaches populated when performing a single refresh on the Geocache Map page.

Since we do not have detailed information on how the data is requested and or retrieved from groundspeak servers, it is difficult to determine if this is a device or server side 'bug'. The behavior can be observed in all Garmin GCLive equipped GPSr, which leads me to suspect a server side issue. I must state that this is something that is experienced infrequently, and until your post, I do not believe it has ever been mentioned here.

BTW, zooming in to any given map area does not limit the GPSr to download geocaches only within view. Most of the time, at higher zoom levels, the device is most certainly also loading geocaches that are displayed in surrounding areas of the map. Again, how it is decided which geocaches are loaded to the device when more than 25 are available is unknown, and may be controlled in part by either the Server, the GPSr, or both.

I am not aware of any issues where PQ or Lists are loaded incompletely. If you have specific examples, please share details sufficient to duplicate and verify the results so that we can forward test data to Garmin for consideration.

I have linked your post above from the Chirp Crash #2 on the Montana 7x0 Common Issues page.
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LeBombardier
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Re: GCLive Geocaches: Not Always Loaded Successfully

Unread post by LeBombardier »

I love treasure troves of knowledge like you. :lol: I did hope for some insight from my friends at GPS Training, but didn't get what I feel is a feasible response in their monthly podcast last week (44 minutes in).

My gut feeling (as an engineer) is that it's probably more likely an issue with the module installed on all Geocaching Live supported Garmin devices than a server issue. But without having access to the source code it's so tricky to find a pattern, especially when missing caches can be random and not recurring when tests are re-run. It would be great if Garmin looked into this. I think it's in the nature of Garmin users to just accept that these devices come with irritating bugs, and perhaps that's why we fail to see these sorts of things as issues.

For a PQ the best way to replicate what I see is to clear your Live Download data, build a new PQ based on a postcode and ensure it's polling the nearest 500 unfound caches. Then go onto the Garmin and download/sync the results. Now go to the GC or Garmin map and find a large cluster of caches and compare with the GC mobile app or website. You should find a missing cache in one in every ~15-20 caches. This is the same as when I manually download a GPX of a PQ and add it to the device through the back end (File Explorer). Note all caches show up just fine when loading PQ's within the GC environment on desktop or mobile, so can rule out the PQ as being the issue. If you repeat the process above with the same PQ you'll find different caches are affected every time.

I decided to start a new topic on the Garmin Chirp issue just to make the two issues distinctly different. I can imagine this topic getting rather noisy with debugging.

Thanks again for your help! I'm learning so much here.
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GPSrChive
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Re: GCLive Geocaches: Not Always Loaded Successfully

Unread post by GPSrChive »

Please clarify:

If you manually load a Geocache PQ in GPX format to the GPSr, you still find some geocaches from the PQ are not displayed?

And you have inspected the PQ GPX to verify they are indeed present in the downlaoded file?
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LeBombardier
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Re: GCLive Geocaches: Not Always Loaded Successfully

Unread post by LeBombardier »

An interesting development when testing tonight.

For the first test I deleted all Live Geocaching details. I then downloaded a Geocaching List (essentially a PQ) which resulted in the occasional cache not showing at the same rate I mentioned. For those caches missing, they were in the PQ downloads I grabbed from the GC website (using the cache reference to search the file). When hovering over a missing cache and selected 'Download Caches' from the Geocaching map menu (per my video) it filled in the missing cache.

For the second test I deleted all Live Geocaching details. I then download a PQ direct from the GC website and uploaded it to the GPX folder on the device. This resulted in all caches showing with no issues for some reason. Perhaps this was a more pure test than those preceding. I then selected 'Download Caches' from the Geocaching map menu (per my video) and thankfully nothing disappeared. Of course performing the same action in areas not covered by the PQ result in the same flaky behaviour as you'll have seen in my behaviour. It only seems to guarantee accuracy for those caches manually uploaded to the device from a PQ export.

As a final test I did the same as the above, but uploaded 5 PQ's of 500 caches each. The result was just as accurate before with no missing caches.

So it would appear Geocaching Live - the on-device app or the service supplying it from Groundspeak - is at fault. This means the device isn't massively useful when caching ad-hoc in unplanned areas away from a USB cable. Not ideal, so thinking this would still benefit from being classed as a bug.

What do you think?
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GPSrChive
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Re: GCLive Geocaches: Not Always Loaded Successfully

Unread post by GPSrChive »

Please explain (I'm a little slow):
LeBombardier wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:02 pm When hovering over a missing cache and selected 'Download Caches' from the Geocaching map menu (per my video) it filled in the missing cache.
How do you 'hover' over a missing cache?
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LeBombardier
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Re: GCLive Geocaches: Not Always Loaded Successfully

Unread post by LeBombardier »

I tap on the map roughly where the cache should be (using the Geocaching website for reference) then select 'Download Caches'. That means I'm searching for caches in the area where they're missing.
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LeBombardier
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Re: GCLive Geocaches: Not Always Loaded Successfully

Unread post by LeBombardier »

Update from Garmin UK:
I do believe this [upcoming] update also potentially resolves the issue where you are seeing some geocaches not appear when doing live geocaching. However I haven't got 100% confirmation of that. So do let me know if that issue continues.
Here's hoping!... :ugeek:
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