Montana 700 Map Screen Redraw Issue [Bug 54], Startup Issue, and Small Request

Discussion related to the Garmin Montana 7x0 series GPSr
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LostAgain
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Montana 700 Map Screen Redraw Issue [Bug 54], Startup Issue, and Small Request

Unread post by LostAgain »

G'day All,

Here's a copy of an email I've sent to Garmin with regards to map screen redraw & startup issues I've been having with a Montana 700, and a small request included which I hope they look into also.
I did send a copy of the GarminDevice.xml file but could not find a System.xml file anywhere on the device, I checked the backup of it I made the day I received it and there was none there either.

Cheers


__________________________________________

Hello,

I have a Montana 700 I purchased new in October 2020.
I believe it has a bug with the map redrawing while in Track Up mode.
I've spent many hours over the last several days researching and reading up on these units to look for a fix or see if anyone else is having similar issues, so far I haven't found any mention of it.

Steps to reproduce:
Move along at a consistent speed of around 15-20 kilometres per hour (kph) or more (tested up to about 70 kph) for around 100 metres or so, then come to a stop and while doing so turn the vehicle enough so that the map shows as rotating around towards the new direction of travel when stopping.
Wait until all screen movement has stopped and displayed speed goes to zero, which usually takes a second or two after coming to a complete stop.
Wait a few more seconds then start the vehicle moving slowly again, once moving zig zag from left to right while moving along at a low (walking pace) speed.

What I'm seeing when I do this is the direction changes during the zig zagging at low speeds aren't reflected on the map as they should be, it just remains frozen facing the same way.
The speed data field will alternate between 0 and whatever the current speed is while this is occurring, changing continuously from 0 to 3 to 0 to 3 etc. every second.
The location on the map is updated though, and appears to update every second as it should, the breadcrumb trail/track is also updated as it increases in length.

It seems like it behaves in North Up mode while this is happening, except the cursor is still in the Track Up position on the screen and it doesn't reflect any direction changes.

Continuing along at low speeds, the time before it starts showing direction change rotation on the map again seems to vary, I timed it at anywhere from 10 seconds to over a minute.
Increasing speed either quickly or gradually while it's frozen results in the device operating correctly again, and always when it reaches a speed of 7 kph, the 7 kph is consistent every time, it's like the 700 wakes up again and all is well, once this happens, immediately slowing down again and zig zagging from side to side while moving slowly down to a speed as low as 2 kph it works fine, rotating the map to reflect direction changes as expected.

The issue seems easily repeatable and very consistent, of the 50 + times I tested it for this issue, making changes to all different settings etc. while doing so, the freezing happened every time except once, and that one time it didn't freeze wasn't repeatable, I tested it again immediately with exactly the same settings and conditions and it froze again.
Sometimes it doesn't have to come to a complete stop for the map rotation to freeze, if I'm travelling at a constant pace for a while, then slow down to drive around something or cross a small creek or whatever, the map redraw sometimes freezes.

I read in some of the Garmin info when looking for a solution it's mentioned with regards to the handheld devices that if moving at a very low speed of 0.8 kph (0.5 mph) or less it only updates the screen about every 40 something seconds, which is quite understandable.
However at speeds of 3 kph or more I believe it should be updated at the usual intervals of 1 second, but it does not.

I use it in a powered cradle (010-12881-00), the one with the USB plug for power input on the side.
I normally use it only in Landscape orientation as I've fixed the cradle in a permanent position that's unable to be rotated to Portrait orientation.
I did test several times and the same freezing issue happens in Portrait orientation with it out of the cradle.
I've tried all different profiles, all dashboards, no dashboard and all the different activities.
Tried map speed normal or fast, tried different maps, no maps, saved tracks shown or not shown, with waypoints, without waypoints (deleted the waypoint .gpx file) etc. etc..
I also tried a factory reset of the 700, it did not fix the issue.

My 700's firmware is up to date, I updated it before I began the testing, it's showing version 8.20.
However, since updating it to 8.20 I now notice that sometimes the unit will not power on until the battery is removed then put back again.
I've got it set to power on with external power and that works fine every time in the cradle or when plugged into a computer or charger, but when it's out of the cradle and I try to power it up sometimes nothing happens when the power button is pressed, the red light doesn't flash or anything until the battery is removed and put back, then it seems to start up ok.
That issue seems random and only started after updating to 8.20 a few days ago, never had it happen before then.
I did notice it's very slow to load that Info page where the firmware & all the copyright terms etc. is found, but that might be because of the amount of info it has to load, everything else I've used on it or done with it so far (except the map freezing issue) has seemed to work fine, nice fast responses to page changes, starts up super fast compared to my 610 with the same saved tracks, waypoints etc. etc..

A video of this happening I took while testing is here - https://youtu.be/Kifl8SXzKYw

It goes for about 9 minutes, there are some gaps in the audio because I removed all the colourful language and other personal things we were talking about while I was recording the clips.
The flickering of the device screens that appears occasionally is not the devices themselves but caused by the camera.
The video shows the 700's freezing issue in a side-by-side comparison with my Montana 610 that doesn't and has never done this, and the last couple of minutes with my 610 and also my 276CX, which has also been a wonderful source of grief at times...but that's a whole other story, lol.
I know having devices close together like this can be a cause of problems and interference between the devices themselves.
This was only done for an easy to see comparison showing the issue, the majority of the testing I did was done without the other devices turned on or near the 700, and any other electronics (stereo, phones, UHF etc. etc.) all switched off.
The cursors on the 700 & 610 are custom ones I made myself to have the very tip of the cursor be at my exact location, I switched back to the default cursor on the 700 but it made no difference as the freezing behaviour remained the same.

You might notice my fantastic screen protector in the video, it's a piece of 70% car window tint.
I actually bought the 700 for mostly night time usage and was very disappointed to discover the poor quality of the display in night mode, the backlight at the lowest level isn't bright enough to see properly, and at the next brightness step up it appears too bright, getting consistenly worse as the level is increased.
The colours are all washed out, using a map with a black background actually appears a washed out grey colour.

The image below I took before I put my screen protector on it shows a side-by-side comparison with a 276CX with both devices in night mode, same zoom level, same map, both screens set to 50% brightness.
The area inside the orange coloured road where the cursor & waypoint is is actually a very dark brown colour with a black rectangle just to the top left of the cursor/waypoint.
The area outside the orange coloured road towards the fence is set in the Typ file as black (RGB 000, #000000) and displays as it should on both the 610 & 276CX, it looks terrible on the 700 compared to these.

IMG-2659.jpg

I found that even at the 2nd lowest (1st usable) level of brightness at night, without the tinting it was too bright and created to much backshine in my face while trying to see clearly out the windscreen, I was unable to find any tinted screen protectors at the time so used a piece of window tint instead.
It appears all rough up close in the videos but it's not noticeable day or night at viewing distance and considerably reduces the overshine from the poor quality night mode display.
Just for the record, the freezing behaviour was occurring before I put the tint on, I know some tints can contain thin layers of metal and I want to rule that out as a possible cause.

I hope this information can lead to a fix of this issue I'm having.
I do a lot of stop-starting changing direction etc. when using a GPS and with the 700's current behaviour as it is I find it practically unusable as I need precision accuracy with regards to map rotation and my movements at higher and lower speeds.
The 610 does this perfectly, but I much prefer the larger screen and faster response of the 700 series.


Finally, my small request:
My request is can you please change the clock font to solid in the info bar at the top of the screen when using the Corner Data Fields dashboard or no dashboard while in Night Mode?

The current font used is not solid white but black in the centre with a white outline while in Night mode.
This is very hard to see while moving along in an offroad situation over rough ground.

I find that when using the Corner Data Fields, in order to see the time correctly at a glance while moving along I have to 'waste' a data field, so to speak, to use for the time display in order to be able to see the time at a glance while moving along.
If the dashboard is anything but Corner Data Fields, Automotive or None the clock and battery indicator are a solid white colour which is far easier to see.
The images below show what I mean, top one is with Corner Data Fields, bottom one is with Small Data Fields.
Even though the clock display is slightly smaller with Small Data Fields, being all solid it is far easier to see in offroad situations over rough country.

IMG-2799.jpg
IMG-2800.jpg

Thank you very much for taking the time to read this email, I'm quite happy to do any testing that may be required or provide more information with regards to these issues.
As mentioned above, I sincerely hope the information I have provided can lead to a fix of the trouble I'm having with the Montana 700.

Regards
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GPSrChive
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Re: Montana 700 Map Screen Redraw Issue [Bug 54], Startup Issue, and Small Request

Unread post by GPSrChive »

Thank you for this very detailed write up!

We have read through it and watched your video, and have made contact with the Garmin Software Engineers directly to make sure they are aware of your email and post.

We can only now wait to see if, and when or how they may respond.

Please update this post if/when you see any response, and we will do the same!

Posted to GPSrChive > Montana 7x0 > Common Issues > Bug 54.
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LostAgain
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Re: Montana 700 Map Screen Redraw Issue [Bug 54], Startup Issue, and Small Request

Unread post by LostAgain »

G'day gpsrchive,

You're welcome.
Thanks for contacting Garmin about it, I was thinking it'd possibly be about a week before I hear anything back from them, and yes, if or hopefully when I get a response I'll post it here.
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GPSrChive
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Re: Montana 700 Map Screen Redraw Issue [Bug 54], Startup Issue, and Small Request

Unread post by GPSrChive »

LostAgain wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:20 pm I was thinking it'd possibly be about a week before I hear anything back from them, and yes, if or hopefully when I get a response I'll post it here.
We live in a world where when something happens 13,000 miles away, we can find out about it a moment later, and for many of us, should our heart desire any specific product, we can have it delivered to our doorstep in a matter of hours, or a day, or two...

Unfortunately, Garmin does not move at this speed, so be patient.

:D
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LostAgain
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Re: Montana 700 Map Screen Redraw Issue [Bug 54], Startup Issue, and Small Request

Unread post by LostAgain »

Ha ha, yes I've dealt with Garmin support before :lol:

Something else I never even noticed myself that a user at ADVRider picked up on in my video, the battery icon is red, apparently that means hot battery, I see that often, and only when the battery is nearly at full charge, not sure if it's related to the issue I have sometimes where I have to remove the battery so it'll start or not.
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GPSrChive
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Re: Montana 700 Map Screen Redraw Issue [Bug 54], Startup Issue, and Small Request

Unread post by GPSrChive »

Unfortunately, Garmin Hardware Engineers have yet to realize the products they design are most frequently used.... Outdoors, and most commonly during the daytime, where direct sunlight is frequently encountered! (who knew?)

Almost all of my Garmin products will overheat within 20-30 minutes of use, display overheating warnings, and then power off (when mounted to windshield or dash). The only way to prevent this is not mount them in a location that has direct sunlight, which means no windshield mounts (which they provide), no handlebar mounts (they also provide), no mounts anywhere where direct sunlight may be encountered, which relegates many of them to indoor use only.

I have considered applying a thin layer of reflective film to the back side of them for testing, but this might reflect sunlight into other motorists eyes and create a safety issue.

Garmin really should consider improving the thermal shielding in all of their products so this becomes less of an issue.
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LostAgain
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Re: Montana 700 Map Screen Redraw Issue [Bug 54], Startup Issue, and Small Request

Unread post by LostAgain »

Interesting, I've never had one shut down from overheating that I can remember.
Perhaps the 700 will be my first :roll: :mrgreen:

Maybe something as simple as white or very light coloured devices might help a little with this sort of thing, I don't think I've seen a white GPS except some watches, and apart from my old yellow GPS60's the others I have are all dark coloured.
I used a piece of white paper years ago, it worked ok for long drives with the windows up while the device was in direct sunlight.
Biggest issue was getting the paper to stay where desired, very small dab of silicone sealant between paper and mount in a couple of spots worked ok, easy to remove or replace, didn't affect the signal strength that I noticed.

I wouldn't imagine a small reflective film the size of a GPS would be any worse than driving past another vehicle & copping the sunlight reflection off their windscreen.
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LostAgain
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Re: Montana 700 Map Screen Redraw Issue [Bug 54], Startup Issue, and Small Request

Unread post by LostAgain »

Got a response today.
Looks like I'm rolling back the firmware.
Will do that later then test it again.

Hi ******* ,

Thank you for contacting Garmin Australasia,

I have found this self service article that may assist you below:
Montana 700/700i/750i software version 7.10

as of November 30, 2020
Use Garmin Express to install this file.

(29.20 MB)

View system requirements
Notes:

WARNING: If this software is uploaded to a device other than that for which it is designed, you will not be able to operate that device.
If attempts to upload software fail, you may need to return the device to Garmin® for service.

If you have any further questions at all then please feel free to contact us on 1800 235 822 EST (Australia), 0800 427 652 (New Zealand) 8:30am-5pm (Mon-Fri).

Please note that in keeping with current guidelines on social distancing, Garmin Australasia Pty Ltd will no longer be able to receive customer visits directly onto Garmin premises. In complying with these directions Garmin Australasia Pty Ltd does not support any contradiction of Covid-19 Government directions, please utilise our existing return processes as outlined on our website for returning product or call Garmin Product Support on 1800 235 822 or 0800 427 652 NZ for assistance. Your co-operation during this challenging time is appreciated.

Kind Regards

*******

Product Support Consultant

Garmin Australasia

Phone: AU 1800 235 822 NZ 0800 427 652

Website: https://support.garmin.com/en-AU/

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LostAgain
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Re: Montana 700 Map Screen Redraw Issue [Bug 54], Startup Issue, and Small Request

Unread post by LostAgain »

My reply back to Garmin support after not being able to figure out how to use Garmin Express to roll back to version 7.10.
Hello ******,

How do I roll back the software from version 8.2 (current) to version 7.10 using Garmin Express?
There's no option to do that that I can find in the program, it just shows as being up to date except for a language file for a language I don't use.
There's no explanation in your email that explains how to do this, and the self service article explains nothing.

Thanks

******
Link to the article I was given in the email - https://www8.garmin.com/support/downloa ... 3#Instruct if a how-to is there I can't see it.

I've had 2 more issues with it this evening.
Earlier I turned it on indoors to check something, got called away and left it indoors, came back about 15 minutes later and it had frozen up on the white Trouble Finding Satellites (or whatever it says) message page that comes up after a certain time if it can't get a fix.
Tapping anywhere on the screen had no effect.
I discovered that rotating it from Landscape to Portrait mode seemed to free it up, the message disappeared and everything started worked again.
I've been trying to repeat that to confirm an issue but it's decided now it wants to keep getting a weak enough signal indoors (fully closed, all metal building) that the message isn't triggered again :?

The second one is a saved track that I've had on the device since day one will no longer show up no matter what I try.
It's shown in a file manager when plugged into a computer, the same track works fine on the 276CX & 610, tried a backup of the track, tried removing all other tracks, unshowing the other tracks etc. etc. and nope, no success.

Just figured a work around for this problem, used the 276CX to change the colour of the track so it would be 'saved' by the CX, then copied it to the 700 and it now shows up...starting to try my patience this device, lol.

I've had similar track, waypoint and other issues with cheap Chinese devices in the past, usually caused by the internal storage of those devices becoming corrupted :shock:

EDIT: forgot to mention that before starting it up for the first time today I took the battery out and wiped it's contacts and the contacts they meet inside the device lightly with a lint free glasses cleaning cloth, since then I haven't had the issue where I've had to remove the battery to get it to start.
Last edited by LostAgain on Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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GPSrChive
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Re: Montana 700 Map Screen Redraw Issue [Bug 54], Startup Issue, and Small Request

Unread post by GPSrChive »

Rolling back to a previous firmware is a viable option, but, IMHO, not the best option at this time. Others have posted that Garmin indicated to them another big update is due any time now, so if this were happening to me, I would wait to see how the device behaves after the next update. I would also strongly urge you to do a master reset AFTER the next firmware update.
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