Comments from a new Oregon 700 geocaching user

Discussion related to the Garmin Oregon 7x0 series GPSr
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Daveb10780
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:20 pm

Comments from a new Oregon 700 geocaching user

Unread post by Daveb10780 »

1. There is no Geocache Active dashboard just Geocache Nearest. Hence if I wish to navigate to a cache I now have to do this:
Click the dashboard
Wait for the list to load (more of this in a moment since it can take many seconds)
Select the cache
Hit GO

On the 550
Click on the cache that is in the dashboard to show its description
Hit GO

I would estimate that at least 95% of the time I wish to go to the nearest.
@Garmin - I would expect this dashboard to still exist in a new GPS but I probably would be OK if the performance issue was addressed

2. The 700 supports many caches, however this is a little disengenious since the time taken to load a list increases with size making the feature much less useful e.g.
2 secs 5000 loaded (similar or slightly slower than 550)
4 secs 18000 loaded
20 secs 80000 loaded

In combination with the dashboard in my first point this makes operation excruciating and the large number of caches useless.

@Garmin - I expect it to take longer to load more new caches but the time to list to be efficient. Please resolve.

3. GGZ format for caches - as far as I can see this saves some space over GPX files but gives no performance benefit whatsoever. Both formats seem to take the same time to load.

4. Filtering. On the Oregon 550 you had the following
Find a cache defaults to Not found under all circumstances (I use this at least 95% of the time, not a great surprise since I am finding caches)
Show found is a Specific Button (I use this about 5% of the time to see what I have found that day).
Other filters set up as required (I use this very rarely to look for specific caches)

Now for me and I suspect other cachers this is perfect but the 700 has combined all these into one filter screen without have the implicit Not Found filter and found buttons. If I use a different filter to "not found" I have to remember to reset when I continue my expedition.

@Garmin - This is downgraded functionality


5. Keyboard operation
On the 700 when I switch to numeric I have to go via special characters to get back to alpha mode.

@Garmin Would be great to return to alpha in 1 keystroke


Am I being unreasonable here? Have I missed a better way to do things?
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GPSrChive
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Re: Comments from a new Oregon 700 geocaching user

Unread post by GPSrChive »

Daveb10780 wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:32 am 1. There is no Geocache Active dashboard just Geocache Nearest.
The Oregon 7x0 Geocache Dashboard includes three unique display modes: 'Nearest Geocache', 'Active Geocache', and 'Next Stage'.

Please see 'GPSrChive > Oregon 7x0 > Operation > Dashboards > Geocaching Dashboard' for more information.

Daveb10780 wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:32 am The 700 supports many caches, however this is a little disengenious since the time taken to load a list increases with size making the feature much less useful. In combination with the dashboard in my first point this makes operation excruciating and the large number of caches useless.
As you point out, the size of the geocache database loaded is directly proportional to the amount of time it takes the GPSr to sort and display results.

If you were to split your 'loaded' geocaches into multiple smaller *.gpx or *.ggz files based on region or location, and then enable only the one file needed in 'Geocache Filters > Geocache Files', you will see improved performance.

Daveb10780 wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:32 am GGZ format for caches - as far as I can see this saves some space over GPX files but gives no performance benefit whatsoever. Both formats seem to take the same time to load.
The GGZ file format, by design, substantially reduces the amount of data the GPSr has to sort in real-time. Were you to load your 80K geocache database as a single GPX file only, test responsiveness, then load the same 80k geocache database as GGZ and retest, the GGZ will always be noticeably faster than the GPX.

Daveb10780 wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:32 am The 700 has combined all these into one filter screen without have the implicit Not Found filter and found buttons. If I use a different filter to "not found" I have to remember to reset when I continue my expedition.
The 'Show Found' function remains the same as before, only the button to enable/disable it has moved to the same screen with all the other filters, which means less fumbling around through multiple pages and menus to find all filter settings. This is improved functionality!

Daveb10780 wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:32 am On the 700 when I switch to numeric I have to go via special characters to get back to alpha mode. Would be great to return to alpha in 1 keystroke.
I can not see how they might do this without skipping the special symbols keyboard. The available space for keyboard buttons on the GPSr screen is very limited, and adding another new button with the sole lpurpose of skipping one additional keypress of another would not be the best use of space here.
Daveb10780
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:20 pm

Re: Comments from a new Oregon 700 geocaching user

Unread post by Daveb10780 »

Thanks very much for taking the time to reply and for your most interesting comments. I have looked a little deeper into the unit and am more convinced than before there is a huge inefficiency here. Without the code we cannot be sure but I would wager quite a few of my hard earned pounds the search features are capable of dramatic improvement. The cache structure revolves around a SQLlite database UserData.sqlite3 which has a table for geocaches and an efficient, scalable, RTree implementation for coordinates (https://www.sqlite.org/rtree.html). Rtree is designed to provide a very quick lookup for whether a given point is within a boundary. The geocache table has minimum data for simple display and points to the files for details. So far so good and the sql tables are all that is required to get search results. The supporting GGZ files are not required until the detail is shown. It should scale very well but clearly does not.

Having looked at the database structure and data performance should be roughly the same no matter how many ggz files you have. This SQL uses Rtree database to get geocaches within a distance from location 53.5 -1.8.
select * from geocaches g
join geocache_locations gl
on gl.rec_idx = g.rec_idx
where
g_distance(gl.lat-53.5, gl.lon+1.8) < 20
-- if this is the code it is likely more efficient to use a bounding rectangle as follows, would have to do tests
--gl.lat > 53.3 and gl.lat < 53.7
--and gl.lon >-2.0 and gl.lon < -1.6
order by
g_distance(gl.lat-53.5, gl.lon-+1.8)

Note: there will be a function to calculate distance created by Garmin developers since native SQLite cannot do this.

On my PC the query takes a few ms. On the garmin 700 I would have thought this should be less then 1 second. However it does not seem to be. Maybe they are not using a where clause to limit results just the ordering which might explain the lack of scalability and the time taken.
gpsrchive wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:50 pm As you point out, the size of the geocache database loaded is directly proportional to the amount of time it takes the GPSr to sort and display results.
If you were to split your 'loaded' geocaches into multiple smaller *.gpx or *.ggz files based on region or location, and then enable only the one file needed in 'Geocache Filters > Geocache Files', you will see improved performance.
This is indeed the case but due to the database structure it should not be. Get an answer to this and we would be a long way to solving most problems.
gpsrchive wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:50 pm
Daveb10780 wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:32 am The 700 has combined all these into one filter screen without have the implicit Not Found filter and found buttons. If I use a different filter to "not found" I have to remember to reset when I continue my expedition.
The 'Show Found' function remains the same as before, only the button to enable/disable it has moved to the same screen with all the other filters, which means less fumbling around through multiple pages and menus to find all filter settings. This is improved functionality!
This is really interesting since I had to do this in the field the other day. I had 8 found caches but this filter took about 45 seconds to display. On my Oregon 550 this would be instantaneous. I then selected a cache to navigate again and am back on the map. Now the double whammy, in order the change the filter I had to go through the same excruciating 45 seconds to be able to change back to Not found.
As an experiment I tried this again at home with no caches found, took similar time. This is abysmal. @Garmin please investigate and fix.
gpsrchive wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:50 pm
Daveb10780 wrote: Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:32 am On the 700 when I switch to numeric I have to go via special characters to get back to alpha mode. Would be great to return to alpha in 1 keystroke.
I can not see how they might do this without skipping the special symbols keyboard. The available space for keyboard buttons on the GPSr screen is very limited, and adding another new button with the sole lpurpose of skipping one additional keypress of another would not be the best use of space here.
No problem with this.
Daveb10780
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:20 pm

Re: Comments from a new Oregon 700 geocaching user

Unread post by Daveb10780 »

One final thought my feeling is that the time taken to show a list of geocaches should be the same time as for POIs or Extras. If I was the product owner this would be my requirement. So come on Garmin put the icing on the cake and get the 700 series to preform as they should.
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